It all started when Yuzuru Hanyu said he was a MOTHER 2 fan on a TV program. This brought about the kind of discussion you only dream about. Not in a cliche way, but really and truly an amazing thing. Last December, Yuzuru Hanyu and Shigesato Itoi met in a studio in Sendai and talked about all kinds of things for two hours. We’re pleased to be able to bring you that discussion.
Yuzuru Hanyu
Born in 1994 in Miyagi Prefecture. Began figure skating at 4 years old and became world junior champion at age 14. Later won four consecutive Grand Prix Finals and four consecutive Japan Figure Skating Championships. Also won two gold medals in a row at the Sochi and Pyeongchang Olympics. Became a professional figure skater in July 2022. Currently concentrating on producing and starring in an ice show.
Boyhood／Mirror Neuron／Heaven and Earth／Mr. Saturn／
Ballet／Timeline／Homesick／Universe／Johnny Weir／
Reset／Tohoku Earthquake and Tsunami／Picasso／Sprain／
Parallel Universe／Heroic Sword and an Evil Sword／Produce／
Astro Boy／Music／Ness／Fifteen-year-old／
Romeo and Juliet／Goldfish／Nap／Athlete／Millennials／
Elder sister／A Beatles song, XXXterday／
Score／Vinyl／Death／Youngest child／
That／Hip hop／Mozart／Dilemma／Ice Show
- Itoi
- If there was a “Story of Yuzuru Hanyu,” it would be about a boy with strong mirror neurons that made him more like the people he looked up to, and whose skills quickly powered up. What about his personality?
- Hanyu
- His personality.
- Itoi
- Main characters grow up in their stories, and their personalities tend to change alongside their skills. What was it like for you?
- Hanyu
- Hmm, well, if I were to explain it in terms of MOTHER 2...
- Itoi
- That’s a lovely example, thank you.
- Hanyu
- (Laughs) In terms of MOTHER 2, Ness for example gets homesick.
- Itoi
- Yes he does.
(*The main character of MOTHER 2, Ness, is afflicted with homesickness once in a while and is unable to fight in battle. It’s cured by visiting or calling home.)
- Hanyu
- But as he gets stronger and stronger, there’s a certain level at which he no longer becomes homesick. I think that’s an incredibly astute way to portray the way that people grow up. It starts by recklessly plowing ahead, but you make friends along the way, you get to know more people, and it’s in that environment that you’re able to fight on. Once you realize that’s happening, it seems clear that the main character’s personality would also be changing as he goes.
- Itoi
- That’s true. So in other words, no matter how much strength a person has, if they only go along life with their own power, they’re going to lose sight of their goal along the way.
- Hanyu
- Yeah. And for Ness, that was during the time he got homesick the most easily.
- Itoi
- Yeah, for sure. As you explain that, I’m kind of thinking that you’re someone who might have the strength to fight with your own power. But strength alone won’t keep you on the right path. I’ve heard it explained in terms of swords before, with a heroic sword and an evil sword.
- Hanyu
- Yeah.
- Itoi
- They’re both incredibly strong, but in the end, a holy sword would prevail over the evil one in some way. So it’s more than just strength and ability—you have to change as a person, too.
- Hanyu
- That’s true. If you only focus on getting stronger, you’ll end up getting careless. In MOTHER 2, you level up so you can beat some enemies you weren’t able to beat before, and that makes your level go up even further. At some point you get strong enough that the battle automatically ends when you run into that enemy.
- Itoi
- Yeah, that happens when you’re a certain level above the enemy.
- Hanyu
- As a player, that’s really satisfying, but speaking from a sense of character, that doesn’t seem quite right.
- Itoi
- Ah, I can see that.
- Hanyu
- Until that point you’ve been coming across laid back guys and middle aged ladies and gang members and aliens and fighting various characters, but after a certain point you start to look at everything in terms of experience points. I think that same distorted perspective could happen in real life, too. For example, say I train and win first place in a competition. I’ll be really happy at first, but then I get better and better, and winning competitions becomes a given. That would start creating a distance between me and everyone else. That’s not necessarily the path taken with an evil sword, but it does start to feel that way.
- Itoi
- I think humans inherently desire stronger and stronger things, but if something were to have strength and really nothing else, there’s something dull about that.
- Hanyu
- Yeah. So the games in the MOTHER series end with final battles that involve a strength different than the standard strength that had been relied upon until then. The commands in the battle system aren’t even the same anymore.
- Itoi
- Yes, that’s very true.
- Hanyu
- It’s not about inflicting damage, it’s about a heartfelt appeal that extends beyond the characters and actually comes from the player. I think that’s why, to this day, the games have so deeply touched each person who has played them. It takes more than strength to move someone to their core.
- Itoi
- Definitely, yes.
- Hanyu
- This feels similar to how people that cheered me on after the Tohoku disaster had their own individual stories, and it wasn’t something that could be measured in numbers. I think the reason I feel this way is because when I was little, I had the experience of facing a pitch-black TV screen in the final battle of MOTHER 2, and seeing myself reflected there.
- Itoi
- I made that game in the hopes that some kids somewhere out there would be moved in that way, but hearing that it really did hit the mark makes me very happy. Of course, that’s not the only thing I wanted to get across, and I think part of why people were able to get it was because it was presented within a fun thing they were playing.
- Hanyu
- I think so too. I wasn’t only moved when playing MOTHER 2, I also had a lot of points in the game where I thought “now that’s just ridiculous.”
- Itoi
- (Laughs)
- Hanyu
- The script and the puns and stuff struck me as so ridiculous as I played through the game. (Laughs) That cockroach that was in the cave was named “That thing” like you didn’t even want to say what it was.
(*Violent Roach in the English version)
- Itoi
- And “That other thing.” (Laughs)
- Hanyu
- I was like, oh jeez, it evolved. (Laughs)
- Itoi
- And the bad guys that keep showing up and each one says “I am the third strongest.”
- Hanyu
- Yeah, the moles! (Laughs)
- Itoi
- Those kinds of things are more for scoring artistic points when making a game, rather than technical points.
- Hanyu
- Ah, yeah. (Laughs)
- Itoi
- No matter how strong the framework or technical setup of a game, there’s no guarantee that you’ll be able to express what you want. Even outside of games, when I’m making something, I enjoy seeing to what degree I can flesh out that framework with interesting things. In your case, too, no matter how fast you skate or how high you jump, it’s about performing something that others enjoy. It’s more than simply getting stronger.
- Hanyu
- Yeah.
- Itoi
- Man, I had no idea you were such a good MOTHER 2 player. (Laughs)
- Hanyu
- (Laughs)
Boyhood／Mirror Neuron／Heaven and Earth／Mr. Saturn／
Ballet／Timeline／Homesick／Universe／Johnny Weir／
Reset／Tohoku Earthquake and Tsunami／Picasso／Sprain／
Parallel Universe／Heroic Sword and an Evil Sword／Produce／
Astro Boy／Music／Ness／Fifteen-year-old／
Romeo and Juliet／Goldfish／Nap／Athlete／Millennials／
Elder sister／A Beatles song, XXXterday／
Score／Vinyl／Death／Youngest child／
That／Hip hop／Mozart／Dilemma／Ice Show
（To be continued）
2024-03-04-MON
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Photography: Toru Yaguchi
Clothing: tk.TAKEO KIKUCHI