It all started when Yuzuru Hanyu said he was a MOTHER 2 fan on a TV program. This brought about the kind of discussion you only dream about. Not in a cliche way, but really and truly an amazing thing. Last December, Yuzuru Hanyu and Shigesato Itoi met in a studio in Sendai and talked about all kinds of things for two hours. We’re pleased to be able to bring you that discussion.
Yuzuru Hanyu
Born in 1994 in Miyagi Prefecture. Began figure skating at 4 years old and became world junior champion at age 14. Later won four consecutive Grand Prix Finals and four consecutive Japan Figure Skating Championships. Also won two gold medals in a row at the Sochi and Pyeongchang Olympics. Became a professional figure skater in July 2022. Currently concentrating on producing and starring in an ice show.
Boyhood／Mirror Neuron／Heaven and Earth／Mr. Saturn／
Ballet／Timeline／Homesick／Universe／Johnny Weir／
Reset／Tohoku Earthquake and Tsunami／Picasso／Sprain／
Parallel Universe／Heroic Sword and an Evil Sword／Produce／
Astro Boy／Music／Ness／Fifteen-year-old／
Romeo and Juliet／Goldfish／Nap／Athlete／Millennials／
Elder sister／A Beatles song, XXXterday／
Score／Vinyl／Death／Youngest child／
That／Hip hop／Mozart／Dilemma／Ice Show
- Itoi
- When it comes to artistic expression rather than technique, how do you see your own expression?
- Hanyu
- I wonder... I’m not the best judge of myself, but it’s at least important to me to leave some open space, some margins, for people to think on their own.
- Itoi
- Margins.
- Hanyu
- I think it’s probably the same deal with poetry and copywriting and stuff. You put everything into it to express yourself, but it’s also better to leave some margins there. That allows space for the audience to envision something in their own mind, and that lets you get the message across to them.
- Itoi
- So it’s not that you have a complete performance from start to finish, but that you’ve got a completed performance stored within some kind of container.
- Hanyu
- You could put it that way. It’s like a beautiful goldfish swimming around in a clean tank. The goldfish itself is complete, but it’s a question of what kind of water plants you install around your goldfish. For example, each person sees things in a different way, depending on their background and values. So if there aren’t margins to allow for each person to insert themselves, they’ll just kind of take what they see at face value, say “Yeah, got it,” and that’s it.
- Itoi
- Maybe it won’t be much more than an external concept at that point.
- Hanyu
- Yeah.
- Itoi
- It all comes together to form a landscape, random foreign objects and white noise and all. So while you’re paying no heed to how much the audience knows what you’re doing as you skate, from the audience perspective, they’re watching the entire scene before their eyes, including themselves as they sit in it. I’m sure each person is seeing a different thing as they watch. That’s why it’s different when you’re watching players from your own country versus someone from another country.
- Hanyu
- Yeah. For example, I had a program called “Heaven and Earth” that I performed for my last season in a competition, and it’s because Japanese people know about Uesugi Kenshin and Takeda Shingen that they see my program the way they do. People outside of Japan might wonder who Uesugi Kenshin is, but they’re each seeing their own version of the scene as they watch a performance by Yuzuru Hanyu. It’s fascinating to have a world of expressions like that.
- Itoi
- Like each person watching is adding something from their own perspective.
- Hanyu
- Yeah. And it’s important to consciously include those margins I mentioned so that the viewer has room to use their imagination in that deliberate space.
- Itoi
- Ahh, so you’re setting up space for those margins without knowing what’s going to be filled in there. In a way, you’re entering the rink with quite a magnificent scene around you. When were you able to start doing things like making room for those margins?
- Hanyu
- I started to notice it gradually over time. I think the way to do that in skating is probably the same concept as doing it for watercolor paintings. Only the tools and the techniques are different. With written works, a novel with in-depth expressions might add some margins by including some sections more simply worded. Copywriting, meanwhile, would involve a different technique for adding margins since it’s only working with short catchphrases. But the basic expressions and foundation of the two are probably the same.
- Itoi
- Yeah. Speaking of that blank space and range of expression, that reminds me of something. The late composer Ryuichi Sakamoto used to be holed up in his studio for hours, and one time I asked him what he was doing. He said he was deciding on what sound to use, so apparently he spent the most time of all just searching for the kind of sound he wanted.
- Hanyu
- Wow.
- Itoi
- Not the melody, not the rhythm, but the sound itself he said was the most difficult to figure out. It sounded just like you were talking about earlier with those margins.
- Hanyu
- Yeah, it’s all about the quality and nature. If you’ve got something written down, it’s going to come across entirely differently if you’ve got it written by hand, versus the Mr. Saturn font, versus a standard font.
- Itoi
- It’s all about the sound.
- Hanyu
- That’s right. And the nature of it.
- Itoi
- Take a quadruple jump, for example. Any of them would have you spinning in four circles, so maybe they’re the same from a technical perspective, but each one is going to leave a different impression.
- Hanyu
- That’s exactly it. When it comes to technical points, the standards for jumps are pretty black and white, so there’s a tendency to focus pretty hard on jumps for the sake of getting a high score. But if you go back to the basics, I think Johnny Weir, for example, has a very particular approach to his jumps in that it’s all about his posture when he lands the jump. His landing posture was based on ballet, and cultivating those fundamentals allowed him to descend with such beautiful posture and maintain his flow. That landing allowed him to express himself continuously alongside the music without those jumps cutting his performance into separate pieces. That’s probably the artistry that Johnny was aiming for, and what I’d want to aim for as well. But if you try to combine that technique with a truly difficult jump, it’s hard to pull off. No matter how beautiful your landing is, though, if you can’t make those difficult jumps, you’re not going to get the points, and you’re not going to get in the rankings.
- Itoi
- Oh, I see! So his ability isn’t necessarily expressed in his scores. And there’s no leeway in the scores assigned to jumps.
- Hanyu
- Right. There are strict standards set for points from jumps, and none of that changes based on anyone’s personal values. But when it comes to expressiveness, speed, depth of the pose, a sense of happiness, and theatricality, that all depends on the sensibilities and values of the viewer. So difficult jumps are necessary as not to have those scores swayed by those external values.
That’s the difficulty of competitive figure-skating. You can’t just specialize solely in expression. In a way, I’m aiming to surpass this environment where Johnny performed beautifully without quadruple jumps while Plushenko fit three quadruple jumps into a single performance and did quadruple-triple-triple jumps in a single combination. I’d been chasing that during my most competitive era, and I feel like it continues to this day.
- Itoi
- It seems like expression and scoring are at odds with each other, and because they’re both crucial aspects of figure-skating, there’s no easy answer. I’m sure you feel that, too.
- Hanyu
- Yes. If I hadn’t known how unstable the scores were for expression and things assigned by someone’s values, I probably wouldn’t have been trying to master more difficult jumps. And even if I had, I probably wouldn’t have been trying to do them with such a high level of quality. I have a strong sense of my own world that I want to express, but I also have a strong desire to win through a performance that isn’t judged by someone’s personal values, has a level of difficulty to it that’s very straightforward, and has universal scoring. I think I’ve been able to come as far as I have because I feel strongly in both directions.
Boyhood／Mirror Neuron／Heaven and Earth／Mr. Saturn／
Ballet／Timeline／Homesick／Universe／Johnny Weir／
Reset／Tohoku Earthquake and Tsunami／Picasso／Sprain／
Parallel Universe／Heroic Sword and an Evil Sword／Produce／
Astro Boy／Music／Ness／Fifteen-year-old／
Romeo and Juliet／Goldfish／Nap／Athlete／Millennials／
Elder sister／A Beatles song, XXXterday／
Score／Vinyl／Death／Youngest child／
That／Hip hop／Mozart／Dilemma／Ice Show
（To be continued）
2024-03-05-TUE
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Photography: Toru Yaguchi
Clothing: tk.TAKEO KIKUCHI